NATION(S): The 13 C...
 
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NATION(S): The 13 Colonies  

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Rodion
Duke/Duchess

Not to deflate anyone's balloon, but when the game launches, every nation can change their own flag with a Monarch's approval, so its all a moot point in the end. 

If you're still stuck on making the Southern Colonies the platform for positive change, feel free to reach out to one of our leaders.  We'll be considering applications for those looking to make a new home in the South.  🙂 

The Southern Colonies official Discord: https://discord.gg/XzxPn2M

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Posted : September 11, 2020 7:32 pm
William the Drake
Viscount /Viscountess Sponsor
Posted by: @crowdawg0311

By the same token, there is no guarantee that the United States (or even the Confederate States) won't happen and that they won't acquire Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. 

I mean, by this same strand we could also argue that there's no guarantee that the Colonies *won't* revolt and we should therefore not use the Betsy Ross flag and just stick with a Union Jack or (honestly more appropriate) Grand Union flag. This also continues to ignore the main argument of the anachronicity of the initial design; not only of the design itself but of the entity which it represents, that would never have come about within the timeline of Ruler's of the Sea.

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

I'm curious, why only the latter two flags and not all of them?  Are the Stars and Bars or the Bonnie Blue Flag not as Confederate as the latter two?

1: I said that these flags held "explicitly racial weight" as the designer of the latter two clearly intended them to be: "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause" in reference to the Stainless Banner.

2: I said racial weight, not Confederate. Bit of a Freudian slip there

3: The Bonnie Blue is the Republic of Florida Flag. I mean it is another flag of an unsuccessful country so I get why it fits in.

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

Changing it all around just so the Southern Colonies don't have a white field in their flag when there *is* in fact historical precedent for that is at worst blatant revisionism and at best running from history.

...But I did suggest alternate designs with white fields to go along with the suggested Red, White, and Blue field motifs. The issue isn't the white field, but is the current design, on the whole, to include the Blood stripe, and the canton being a clear nod to the Army of Virginia Ensign.

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

I have conceded before that the proposed canton for the Southern Colonies flag is perhaps a bit too close to the Starry Cross.  A circle of stars might be better - possibly even encircling Carolina's Palmetto and Moon to represent its primacy as the capital.  But I think that editing the canton to be further from the Starry Cross would be sufficient to differentiate the fictional flag from the Bloodstained Banner without getting rid of the white field or blood stripe.

Like, I honestly feel like we're agreeing here, I don't get it.

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

Pennsylvania, Delaware, New York, and New Jersey don't have a strongly-felt regional identity with actual historical symbols like the Southern Colonies do

But the Southern States don't have regional identity symbology during this time period, but, like the middle colonies, do have individual identifiers that are era-appropriate that could be used in a design, just like what was suggested with the middle colonies.

Posted by: @rodion

Not to deflate anyone's balloon, but when the game launches, every nation can change their own flag with a Monarch's approval, so its all a moot point in the end. 

If you're still stuck on making the Southern Colonies the platform for positive change, feel free to reach out to one of our leaders.  We'll be considering applications for those looking to make a new home in the South.  🙂 

True, however it's going to be a while until release, and the devs have explicitly stated they would rather a different, more organic  design(s) for both the Southern and Middle Colonies, which is what we have been/are doing.

Also, considering it will end up being the Monarch's call (i.e. devs/staff) that's what we're doing now anyway.

And again, it's not just the Southern Colonies, but also the Middle Colonies, as well as a few of the Pirate Brotherhoods (at least for me)

Fair Winds, and Following Seas

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Posted : September 12, 2020 12:56 am
Crowdawg0311
Sir/Dame
Posted by: @william-the-drake
Posted by: @crowdawg0311

I have conceded before that the proposed canton for the Southern Colonies flag is perhaps a bit too close to the Starry Cross.  A circle of stars might be better - possibly even encircling Carolina's Palmetto and Moon to represent its primacy as the capital.  But I think that editing the canton to be further from the Starry Cross would be sufficient to differentiate the fictional flag from the Bloodstained Banner without getting rid of the white field or blood stripe.

Like, I honestly feel like we're agreeing here, I don't get it.

We're disagreeing about the bloodstripe, not the canton.  I've never disagreed about the canton.

 

Posted by: @william-the-drake

But the Southern States don't have regional identity symbology during this time period, but, like the middle colonies, do have individual identifiers that are era-appropriate that could be used in a design, just like what was suggested with the middle colonies.

Aside from South Carolina, the Southern colonies do not have any individually distinctive identifiers for the time period, and, might I remind you while we discuss anachronisms that the crescent-and-palmetto design is itself an anachronism for 1750.  The palmetto wasn't adopted until 1861 but even just the crescent on the Moultrie flag is 27 years on from 1750, and with a 1:1 time scale, will this game still be around and played by a significantly-sized playerbase 27 years after its launch?  History would suggest not, especially for such a niche game.  I for one would be over 60 years old by that time!  So the argument of anachronism is really pretty moot, as literally none of the historical symbols for any of the three colonies with the exception of the New England colonies flag fit historically for 1750 and the game is unlikely to see a lifespan that would reach the appropriate date for these other Revolutionary-era symbols to be not be anachronistic.  In 1750 the only colonial flags were British colonial ones.  Not the Betsy Ross union flag, not the rattlesnake of the Gadsden flag, not the crescent of the Moultrie flag...none of those existed yet.  So in light of that, this is where the psychology of the modern minds that will be playing the game comes in.  People in the Southern colonies in 1700 might not have had quite as strong a Southern identity (though we know they did have one distinct from the northern and middle colonies, they just hadn't developed any symbols to represent it yet) - but we do today.  It's so strongly felt, that people literally physically fight each other over it.  Calling someone a yankee was fightin' words when I was in school.  Actually being one invited all kinds of harassment and attack.  This not in 1860, nor 1960.  In the 90's and early 2000's.  I think people underestimate or dismiss how strongly Southerners actually still feel about their identity because they see all the carpetbaggers from California and New York tearing down our statues, renaming our places, and outvoting us locals to ban our flags.

All that to say: the modern players who will play this game - and most of those who chose to play the Southern colonies would presumably at least initially be actual Southerners - are likely to have a sense of Southern regional identity.  That's why the Moultrie design, even though historically also popular outside of South Carolina, wouldn't work as a regional symbol because to the modern players who would be seeing it, it is a definitively exclusive symbol of South Carolina specifically, and wouldn't make much sense as a symbol for all the Southern colonies as a whole.  So while Southern regional symbols may be a historical anachronism for the time frame in which the game is set, to the modern minds playing the game there are symbols that represent a very distinct and very strong regional identity.  A regional identity that the middle colonies have always - and still do - lack.  That is why there is little to no discussion or debate about the middle colonies flag - few care what their flag is, because there is no strong regional identity nor is there historical precedent for regional symbols, so it's all down to personal visual preference.

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Posted : September 13, 2020 8:32 pm
Poor Richard
Marquess / Marchioness
Posted by: @crowdawg0311

(I don't think I'm alone in thinking that Maryland fits more with the Middle Colonies as it's never really been considered 'Southern').

To be fair, Maryland’s shift to being more culturally compatible with the rest of the Beltway has a lot more to do with the growth of Baltimore and Washington in the 20th Century than anything else. Colonial Maryland, despite its rivalry with Virginia, was far closer to it and the Carolinas than it was to Pennsylvania or any of the Northern colonies/states.

“I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? ” - Ben Franklin

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Posted : September 23, 2020 5:54 pm
William the Drake
Viscount /Viscountess Sponsor
Posted by: @crowdawg0311

We're disagreeing about the bloodstripe, not the canton.  I've never disagreed about the canton.

Well, that's just it: I disagree about the whole, not one or the other (but the canton naturally holds more symbolic weight)

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

will this game still be around and played by a significantly-sized playerbase 27 years after its launch?

The same could be said about the American Revolution, and all the symbolism with the Betsy Ross flag. The key here is that the Moultrie Flag has around the same viability for the game as any of the other U.S. iconography surrounding the revolution, where imagery surrounding the Civil War is far and beyond past the game's intended period.

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

Not the Betsy Ross union flag, not the rattlesnake of the Gadsden flag, not the crescent of the Moultrie flag...none of those existed yet.

Ah, see, we agree again, lol.

Again the key point here is that while the above are removed from the current period, they are still within the reasonable realm. For example, the Confederate Stars and Bars design didn't come about organically: it mirrored the Stars and Stripes. The Virginia battle flag and subsequent Stainless/Stained Banner developed from those two designs from motifs used in prior U.S. Flags (i.e. use of stars, stripes, etc.) So the idea that those designs would materialize organically and with the same message behind them (i.e., again, "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause") is far less feasible for the time period.

Posted by: @crowdawg0311

they see all the carpetbaggers from California and New York tearing down our statues, renaming our places, and outvoting us locals to ban our flags.

I can tell you from personal experience that it's not the "carpetbaggers," but, in fact, the locals. And yes, before you yell "No true Irishman," I was born and raised in the south, and have lived here all my life. (and yes I still plan to play brit/pirate). But this topic is neither here nor there with the core argument. If you would like, I would gladly talk about modern issues regarding Confederate iconography elsewhere (be it a separate topic, PMs, or in Discord, wherever you prefer 🙂) but here lets keep it to concerning the historical in-game background.

 

Fair Winds, and Following Seas

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Posted : September 26, 2020 9:53 pm
Heptarch liked
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