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Our first ship model, Lyme Class Frigate  

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PeterSJ
Monarch Admin
Posted by: @malcolm3

But if you have proper model of ship, why you can't add 3rd person view like in most Age of Sail games?

That's simply a design choice. It's not that about that it is possible, it's about that we don't want it.

Rulers of the Sea has its design focus on immersion. We want things to be as realistic as possible in the command simulator. Having an eagle view of your ship is not realistic. They did not have drones in the 18th century, or mast cams, of satellites, or anything like that.

We want the experience of the game to come as close as possible to historical re-enactment. That's a purist view. So it you would join a historical re-enactment group and you would re-enact on a ship as a Captain, you would not be able to see your hull below the waterline. You would need goggles or scuba gear to see it. In the 18th century, that is how life would be.

You will see full depiction of your ship in ship design drawings. That will be a technical drawing. You'll not see a rotating 3D model. Because that's simply not something you would see in the 18th century.

This does not only concern ships, it concerns everything. No HUD, no health bars, no life indicators, no wind or speed indicators. No graphs, no statistics, we will aim to display everything as realistically as possible.

If you could view your ship from a distance, you'd have a fantastic view of all the ships around you. We want you to experience the confusion of a real Captain, where sails and smoke obscured your view. We want that type of tactical overview to be a handicap for all gamers, and not provide convenient views that in history did not exist.

So it is important to note that Rulers of the Sea is really not like age of sails games. It's essentially a immersive historical simulator.

Posted by: @malcolm3

Sounds a bit strange as you can have just one model, but with additional layers for different paints in certain areas or something like that.

That's how you physically see it as a gamer, but not how it works from a developers perspective.

Posted by: @malcolm3

Did you consider making hull and masts+rigging as separate models (like in aforemenshioned NA), so you can use same hull, but different rigs either as full set os 3 mast +bowsprit, eigher picking mast sizes/types separately?

No, we're not going to go with all those options. These options multiply and become really expensive. Ships hulls are not the same dimensions, so the masts spacings and connection of the rigging and dimensions would have to be altered for every ship type. It would mean that as it stands now, for one ship type we develop one set of masts and rigging and sails and all animations of those, and animations of crew in those. And we'll have 50 ship types. If we doe masts and rigging in 3 variations, as you suggest, and that would be 150 different sets to create. That is a lot of work and money.

Because we want to keep our design simple and achievable, for a modest budget (of still 17 million USD), we go for basic.

But they would be great options. And if it turns out we will suddenly get not 17 million but 30 million for this project, like a sort of Star Citizen, than we could scale that up and add many more options. Because technically it would be no problem. It's just more of everything. And if, after launch, we're very profitable, we'll aim to introduce many updrades and add-ons, and more ship types and options would certainly be on the table! Because I agree it would be great if you can adjust more on your ship. Which also happened historically.

This post was modified 2 months ago by PeterSJ

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : August 22, 2020 5:04 pm
PeterSJ
Monarch Admin
Posted by: @sir-john

efore I end this post, I'd like to ask: would anyone be interested in an annotated guide to Lyme's plans?  Sort of like a deck tour, passing throughout the ship and noting the different cabins, areas, and fittings.  I would enjoy making it myself, and it could be a fun way to learn more about the ship before we take command. 😀

I would be very interested!

And it is also something, even though we will not feature below deck spaces in the game (apart form Captain's quarters), that we will display in-game for the captain to see. There will be deck plans, also with options such as cannon placements.

So we will have to produce these anyway, and would be very happy with all that information.  

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : August 22, 2020 5:10 pm
Malcolm3
Baron/Baroness
Posted by: @petersj

Rulers of the Sea has its design focus on immersion. We want things to be as realistic as possible in the command simulator. Having an eagle view of your ship is not realistic. They did not have drones in the 18th century, or mast cams, of satellites, or anything like that.

We want the experience of the game to come as close as possible to historical re-enactment. That's a purist view. So it you would join a historical re-enactment group and you would re-enact on a ship as a Captain, you would not be able to see your hull below the waterline. You would need goggles or scuba gear to see it. In the 18th century, that is how life would be.

Yes, it's quite understandable, but having such beautiful and detailed models and being not able to see them properly seems like a waste. At least for visual purposes, not being able to command ship properly in such mode.
Also captain can order to lower a boat and row around ship in a distance to look at it, or do some careening in hidden cove inspecting underwater part of hull (and seeing it).

Posted by: @petersj

That's how you physically see it as a gamer, but not how it works from a developers perspective.

But isn't it more simple to have one model, but consisting of different potentially modifiable parts and modules, than to have one model for each modification? At first you can have in game just few basic variants, but later you can add more of them.
For example for HMS Lyme they can be:

  • Underwater area
  • Hull sides up to waist rail (or upper sheer rail)
  • Upperworks (sides above aforementioned rails) including potentially barricades
  • Stern gallery + quarter galleries (the latter optionally separate) + name plank
  • Bow figure

Same can be applied for idea of having hull and mast separate - first only one variant of rig for each ship, then additional ones.
That for example can be quite useful for RN early sloops, which were rigged differently, being actually the same, or for changing lateen rig for gaff rig at mizzen-mast.

It's more about of planning such things in advance, not about implementing it as a whole from the very beginning

This post was modified 2 months ago by Malcolm3
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Posted : August 22, 2020 6:10 pm
PeterSJ
Monarch Admin

@malcolm3

It this were a trial, the lawyer would object with: 'Asked and answered'. We're going into circles.

It's a design choice that we're not going to show 3D ship models in the way you would like. Some people love that choice, some people hate it, and a lot of people also don't care either way. We can't make everybody happy, so we'll go with what we believe in.

And as to how game development works, in our case it doesn't work in the way you think. But I just don't want to get into very technical development discussions. That's not what this forum is for. There are very good forums for game developers, filled with trained computer science graduates and programmers/coders that love such debates.

What we do here, is explain how the game is designed. And we love hearing opinions and ideas. But we have been thinking about and working on this design for years, and many qualified people have looked at it, and many more will in the development process. So who knows what details might be altered still? But for now we will go with the setup as we have chosen, and it's really up to the development team to discuss the techniques used, and what those can or cannot be used for.

If you're an able video game developer, check out our job section!

https://www.deadeye-games.com/jobs/

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : August 22, 2020 7:26 pm
Sir John
Viscount /Viscountess Sponsor

@rodion You're too kind!  I'm glad you enjoyed my post 😀.  I'm by no means an expert or even a master in these fields, but it is what I aspire to be... eventually.

@nello My pleasure, of course!  I'm very privileged to be able to work with such a wonderfully skilled 3D modeler as yourself, with considerable expertise in period ship-modeling to begin with 😀.

@petersj, I'm glad to hear it.  What I think I'll do is prepare two analyses: one basic with annotations covering cabins, decks, and important elements of the hull structure, and another advanced with annotations including every confirmed fitting within-board. 

I don't think a guide to Lyme's structure is necessary, as much as I love naval architecture... unless this would be useful for the shipbuilding career?

This post was modified 2 months ago by Sir John
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Posted : August 22, 2020 9:39 pm
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PeterSJ
Monarch Admin
Posted by: @sir-john

I'm glad to hear it.  What I think I'll do is prepare two analyses: one basic with annotations covering cabins, decks, and important elements of the hull structure, and another advanced with annotations including every confirmed fitting within-board.

I am very looking forward to that!

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : August 22, 2020 10:12 pm
Malcolm3
Baron/Baroness
Posted by: @petersj

It this were a trial, the lawyer would object with: 'Asked and answered'. We're going into circles.

It's a design choice that we're not going to show 3D ship models in the way you would like. Some people love that choice, some people hate it, and a lot of people also don't care either way. We can't make everybody happy, so we'll go with what we believe in.

But this isn't trial and I'm not lawyer, I'm just trying to understand.

My main concern here is the following problem:

  • You want to make immersive game without usual HP bars and controls etc. So the main source of information will be the visual representation of things and subordinates' reports. But with visual representation the exterior of ship has to be such, as you could get information from looking at that ship, with prospect of being also much close to it.
  • Also you are going to make ships variable due to shipbuilder work and design etc. even within the same class, but this changes should be reflected in visual representation of ship model visible to others, so they can at least partially get some info of this particular ship (see above).
  • Taking in consideration development cost and time, at first that visual variability will be quite limited, but if you want to enhance it later, you have to design system, allowing this, quite early with very first model probably (so you won't need to remake things later)

That's why I'm asking questions here about it and making some suggestions, trying to understand: Do you have already such system and what it will be like? Another question is about proportion between info you get from your own view and one from your subordinates, but it's not to be asked here.

P.S. I'm just humble professional historian and semi-professional wargamer, but nevertheless I will probably try to create some 3D model of Russian 66-gunner (just got the plans of one and quite inspired by Nello's work).

P.P.S. Must admit that 3rd person view can ruin immersion offering player bird view of action, but still looking at beautiful Nello model it's a bit sad that large part of it won't be seen to you in game as a player.

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Posted : August 25, 2020 6:45 pm
PeterSJ
Monarch Admin
Posted by: @malcolm3

So the main source of information will be the visual representation of things and subordinates' reports. But with visual representation the exterior of ship has to be such, as you could get information from looking at that ship, with prospect of being also much close to it.

You don't need to get all that information from visually looking at your own ship. As a Captain you'll have the records of your ship, which is also the way you manage its repairs and upgrades, and where you will get your Carpenter's reports. You'll depend largely on those reports for the state of maintenance, as we will not even have below-deck spaces you can enter. It's the feedback of your (petty) officers that is most important, and those will be as accurate as you have manged their quality to be.

Posted by: @malcolm3

Also you are going to make ships variable due to shipbuilder work and design etc. even within the same class, but this changes should be reflected in visual representation of ship model visible to others, so they can at least partially get some info of this particular ship (see above).

But it won't be. And it wouldn't be that much visible in history either. Do you remember in the film Master and Commander, how Captain Aubrey only knew the secret of the construction of the Acheron, and why he couldn't dent her, because one of his sailors happened to see its construction and made a model? This is not EVE online where you can scan an enemy with your sensor. Much more than the type of ship, number of guns and perhaps some of the state of maintenance you won't be able to determine. In Rulers of the Sea you'll be flying blind a lot of the time, you'll have to make decisions on instinct and intuition, and perhaps your observation of behaviour of the other Captain to determine how good he/she is.

Posted by: @malcolm3

Taking in consideration development cost and time, at first that visual variability will be quite limited, but if you want to enhance it later, you have to design system, allowing this, quite early with very first model probably (so you won't need to remake things later)

We will not enhance it later. It will always be limited. The very premise of the naval action is exactly the lack of information. Ship model, number of guns, state of maintenance, behaviour of Captain and ship, that's all you have to go by. We can keep adding ship models.

Even the information of your own ship will be limited. You will make your design choices, but the behaviour of your ship depends on many variables. It will likely be nearly impossible to attribute the behaviour of the ship to exact components or choices. As both the quality of your design choices, the quality of your crew and the state of maintenance contribute. These are an accumulation of hundreds of variables.

What makes it harder is they we provide you with hardly any statistics. You can have your Sailing Master read the knots. At different sail configurations.  You can turn the ship and time its behaviour. Or sail upwind and see how far she goes. Some items will fail after so many sea-miles, fouling will progress at so much time in the water, but all these things vary on other factors, but you can keep records of it. But that's the data you've got. And the state of maintenance is expressed in evaluating words of your officers, there are no numbers to crunch.

It is on purpose that we provide so little information. In the 18th century things were done on intuition and the knowledge of experience. There were usually no exact ways of measurement. We want Captains to experience having to gain knowledge and skill by trial and error, and to develop theories about what works best for them.

So Rulers of the Sea will be very a-typical in this sense. MMORPG's usually provide very clear statistics and levels, so you can work the system out. We aim to keep that in an eternal fog, creating gamers to form their own theories, methods and tactics. Which might all be true.

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : August 25, 2020 10:41 pm
James Bird
Lord/Lady Sponsor

I suggest that one of the subordinate officer positions shipboard that a captain could, and on a larger ship would need to recruit would be that of sailing master. A very experienced one would be a tremendous asset, with local coastal knowledge, and weather instinct combining with the ability to get the best out of an existing rig providing a source of information and a sounding board for the vessel's gamer captain.

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Posted : August 26, 2020 4:54 am
PeterSJ
Monarch Admin

@james-bird

It is! You can read some more about the Sailing Master and navigation in these threads and topics.

https://www.rulersofthesea.com/careers/cartographer-career/

https://www.rulersofthesea.com/discussions/the-sea-sailing-and-ships/navigation/#post-4235

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : August 26, 2020 11:14 am
Rodion
Duke/Duchess

Nello Fontani was gracious enough to share these beautiful images during our interview and its my privilege to share them here for you to appreciate as well.  The interview is a great read I know you'd enjoy and is posted up in the Southern Colonies discord.  Feel free to take a look.

 

This post was modified 2 months ago by PeterSJ

The Southern Colonies official Discord: https://discord.gg/XzxPn2M

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Posted : August 31, 2020 4:38 am
PeterSJ
Monarch Admin

An update on the work on the Lyme! With again assistance of Sir John on the proper mast dimensions.

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : September 13, 2020 1:55 pm
Nicolas
Baron/Baroness

Si les navires sont aussi beaux que ce canon de marine modélisé que j'ai vu en vidéo, alors je vais faire à coup sûr un marin pour chasser de l'Anglais sur toutes les mers du globe! Vive la France!

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Posted : September 13, 2020 10:02 pm
PeterSJ liked
Nicolas
Baron/Baroness

Is there some new picture of the progress of the game available? The HMS Lyme, a character, a weapon, a building maybe?

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Posted : September 18, 2020 10:16 am
PeterSJ
Monarch Admin

@nicolas

Not currently. In this pre-funding phase the artists (and all others) do the work next to their day jobs, so the work often proceeds according to how much spare time they have in a week. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little.

We're currently in the phase of looking for large investors, which thankfully is proceeding according to expectations so far. Once that succeeds we can pay wages and go to full production. That will ensure daily progress. For now it's on a best effort basis.

But there is more work in the art blog (you probably saw that already, but just in case).

https://www.rulersofthesea.com/discussions/artblog/

This post was modified 1 month ago by PeterSJ

If you hadn't guessed yet, I'm the game designer. Ask me anything, that's what I'm here for!

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Posted : September 19, 2020 1:51 am
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