Very good question.

If there will be any HUD at all, it will be minimal. We'll probably do something to support the 'giving command' structure, once you have the command position on the ship, because that will likely be chaotic without some visual support. But we will try to maximize the use of environment observation to make the interaction and information as immersive and realistic as possible.

So for instance: if you want to know the speed, you can have the Sailing Master take a measument, and then the speed will be noted in the ship's log. The Sailing Master will do this at intervals, and you can order it an additional time if you want to know immediately.

So there is no HUD for speed, you look in the log (which you can see on the Binnacle, when you are in command position, and interact with), or ask the Sailing Master, which will result in an additional notation in the log.

If you want to see the wind direction, you can look at the direction of the ship's flags/wind vanes, and at the ship's compass. Again, your Sailing Master can also note it down. If you want to know the wind speed, you can observe the waves, but also you can make the Sailing Master note down an estimation. Course gets plotted on the map. If you want a position, your Sailing Master will update those at intervals, and can take a bearing on those too. Your indicated position on the map is the last bearing, so there is no moving dot. If you order a destination your Sailing Master can plot an optimal course, taking wind and current into account, and make sure orders are issued. But you can break from that course by ordering a course yourself for the Helmsman. Sail adjustment, Anchor commands, you order to the Boatswain. Etc. Etc. All with no HUD required.

The condition of the ship you can find in the ship's log too. You can order the Carpenter to update it, and he'll do inspections at intervals automatically. This will read like: Hull Condition = Moderate Fouling, Slight Leaking, Keel Condition = Light Hogging, etc., etc. So the condition will be expressed in words of evaluation, not in numbers. You read it, and you can only guess as to the exact effects it has on the ship's performance.

Crew members work in the same way. You get daily officer evaluations on them, also expressed in words, not numbers. Their (petty) officers will provide reports on their skills and performance. The Surgeon on their health. Etc.

So now to practical deck observation:

Yes, your crew wll sight a ship on the horizon and make that vocally known. You yourself might spot it earlier. When you are not in command position, your first officer is, and he will act independently. When you take the command position on the quarter deck, they will wait for your command.

When the ship makes water, the pumps need to be manned. You can set standard orders for this. As the ship makes more water, more crew members are commited to the pump, all the way up to maximum capacity. That will have an effect on other operations, as you will have less hands available. But your Boatswain will take care of the pumps. Keeping the ship afloat is a first priority.

But you can also set it so that all orders need to go through you when you are at command, in which case you can balance the pumps against other operations. You can make a little water perhaps if it means more gunners for the fight. These are all things to configure. Being a Captain is going to be pretty complex, in the beginning you might want to give a lot of initiative to your officers.

But if you are in a battle, and you want to know how the ship holds up, you need to ask the Carpenter to make a damage report. If you want to know how the crew is doing, you need the Surgeon to make an injury or sickbay report. Etc.

So it will be pretty hardcore. It might seem elaborate, but it's important to remember that in reality ship battles were slower than in most games. A broadside could possibly be fired 2 to 3 times in 5 minutes. We follow that reality, so there is time to manage your ship and crew inbetween the hits.

@petersj

How much control will gamers have over sail configuration?

Having read Patrick O'Brian's books it's clear that sail configuration can make a huge difference in performance of the vessel... but very few of us will have the requisite knowledge.

If a gamer Captain leaves that to his crew, how efficient will it be? Will they always choose the most efficient configuration?

@petersj

So if your sailing master or carpenter is injured or dies during a battle, I guess for the rest of the battle and the sail back to port you will have to do it without the aid of their reports/measurements?

@molegrant

Someone else will take over. Mostly, certainly on bigger crews, there are the mates. Carpenter's Mate. Bosun's Mate. Master's Mate. Those were real ranks, this is how it really worked. A Mate is qualitatively the best to take over, they are in training for the job and they also take over when their superior is not on duty. But if there is no Mate to take over, an officer will, or the next ranking petty officer. They have enough general knowledge.

The thing is, the quality of the crew members matters for the quality of reporting. So the better your Carpenter is, the more accurate his reports become. So you can imagine that if the ideal man for the job is disabled, the quality of the reports depends on who takes over. And of course reporting is not all they do, they also carry out work, which suffers too when it is done with less expertise.

This is why you should continually train your specialized crew, and try to have enough backup crew members with enough knowledge and capabilities to take over.

@heptarch

There will be control of sail patterns, so you can choose which sails to set. Because this can be quite bothersome, you can also configure constellations of sail settings. But it is not as detailed as in the books of Patrick O'Brien, because in our world wind is wind, it comes in strengths and it can vary, we don't have gusts, we don't have high and low winds, etc. That matters in real sailing, our world will, of course, have a simplified system (we lack the quantum computer to simulate real weather).

In essence the surface area of sail matters, which differs per type sail and with the angle of the sails to the wind.

The angle of the sails is something that your crew sets to an optimal state (you hope). The angle/course in how you sail you determine when you are in command, and otherwise your Sailing Master sets the course in optimal winds.

The amount of sail determines speed, so it's mainly a surface area mechanic. If the wind is too powerful some sails will have more chance of damage than others, but ultimately they will all go, so you can sail full sail, half sail or no sail, per sail. In battle you don't want to sail with lower sails full because they interfere with sight and they will be vulnerable to damage. Your square rigged sails might get you in trouble at the coast, you might want to solely use your fore-and-aft sails. In bad storm you want to keep some control to keep her in the waves, but not too much sail because you will lose it. If sails are damaged they lose effectiveness, untill they tear altogether. Those type of things manage.

You can always let your first officer sail, then the crew determines everything. When you are in command, you can also leave it up to your crew, because you can give orders with a lot of leeway. Let's say you want to go fast, you can say to your Quartermaster: 'set sails for speed, mr ....'. But you can also micro-manage, and have your own preferred settings.

As to how well your deck crew sails, this depends on their skill and performance levels. Each individual crew member has these, and you have a big influence on them. A well trained crew will respond faster, set things more accurately, and you will get more out of the ship.

So we'll attempt a pretty realistic sailing, as a Captain. But of course there will be simplifications compared to real sailing. But it will be more realistic, from a commanders perspective, than the competing games. Which, is important to note, will require some more patience and time to master. This is a game for people that like that type of fuss. Or leave it to their officers.

@petersj If I may, I'd like to ask a few questions about what's intended and offer a few ideas  😀 

Posted by: @petersj

But it is not as detailed as in the books of Patrick O'Brien, because in our world wind is wind, it comes in strengths and it can vary, we don't have gusts, we don't have high and low winds,

Do you mean that, while winds vary in strength, they don't vary by height above the water?

Posted by: @petersj

The amount of sail determines speed, so it's mainly a surface area mechanic. If the wind is too powerful some sails will have more chance of damage than others, but ultimately they will all go, so you can sail full sail, half sail or no sail, per sail.

I would suggest a more realistic system here for the sake of gameplay, which I think can be just as easily implemented.  I would be happy to explain some of the times when crowding on more sail decreases rather than increases speed if you are not familiar with this idea (or if anyone else would like to learn).  As in the old seaman's saying, "Any fool can make sail, but it requires a skillful sailor to take it in."

Posted by: @petersj

you might want to solely use your fore-and-aft sails.

Realistically speaking, I doubt you would ever find yourself under fore-and-aft sails alone.  I can only imagine this might be the case to dampen roll in a calm or in extremely stormy weather when some might lie to under lower stays'ls.  Even then, in the words of the great David Steel: "they [lower staysails] have not power enough to procure the ship much velocity, nor to make her steer properly."  

Posted by: @petersj

In bad storm you want to keep some control to keep her in the waves, but not too much sail because you will lose it

You are right to prioritize control in these situations, although in the most extreme conditions it was even preferable to rely upon your "bare poles" as propulsion, with no sail set (lying a-try, as it was known in this period.  The British National Maritime Museum has quite a few paintings and sketches which illustrate this if anyone is interested.  Follow that link).  

Posted by: @petersj

your own preferred settings.

That sounds great.  The points above should not give the impression that sail-plans were fixed in any way.  Opinions of sailors varied (and still vary) about the effectiveness of this or that sail, or the necessity of this or that precaution.  I am very glad to hear that such variety will be accommodated by Rulers of the Sea.

I would appreciate the chance to demonstrate sail plans when I get back in ten days from a short sailing trip if that would help you design those mechanics.  The potential for RotS to be an accurate (if simplified) representation of 18th-century sailing is exciting 😀 

I imagine in this game, the sailing is not so much up to conventions, but up to gamers. And it's going to be a puzzle to see what combinations and settings perform best in what circumstances, en per what ship type and sail type. We're not going to leave a manual, and you don't have a set of gauges on the deck, so you'll have to explore, and get readings from your sailing master, and figure out what works. So that might lead to very different conclusions.

As to the settings, there can be lots of variables.

We have sail material, sail surface, sail condition, type of sail, sail angle, wind angle and wind speed. The combination of those factors (per sail) generate knots. Which are then further processed with current, hull shape, hull condition, weight, etc.

So this allows for different values for different sails under different conditions. So we can play with this, tweak it to realistic values. Although vertical wind speed at one location is a constant, we could still give a top gallant a relatively higher gain, for instance, if we want to. Or decrease efficiency of certain sails at higher wind speeds.

There will be ships with only fore-aft sales and ships with predominantly square sails, and obviously these different sail plans especially count depending on whether you are going for large ocean crossings or coastal sailing. If you're trapped at low shore (that's a Dutch translation, I don't know the English term) which will probably happen quite often in the game, considering the experience factor, maybe those fore-aft sails might get you out of a pickle.

You can imagine we'll need to do a lot of tweaking and balancing for this model. Technically not too hard to set up, but very tricky to balance all the effects. And mirror them to reasonably realistic sailing conditions. Many of the things you indicate in your post should be able to enter into that, and for that we will need good advice!

Posted by: @petersj

I imagine in this game, the sailing is not so much up to conventions, but up to gamers. And it's going to be a puzzle to see what combinations and settings perform best in what circumstances, en per what ship type and sail type. We're not going to leave a manual, and you don't have a set of gauges on the deck, so you'll have to explore, and get readings from your sailing master, and figure out what works. So that might lead to very different conclusions

Of course, that is what I meant in my last paragraph.  What I mentioned are things that I hope will be taken into account for the design side, to determine what things "perform best."  By simulating reality with a variety of effects from each decision, I imagine there can still be plenty of room for player preference.  The great staysail debate of the early 19th-century is a great example of pretty wide disagreement in history.

Posted by: @petersj

The combination of those factors (per sail) generate knots.

Do you plan to simulate Center of Effort?  (I think it's essential for any sort of accuracy in sailing maneuvers.  I also think it will prove surprisingly easy to simulate).

Three of the most important factors I was driving at in my last post are lifting/depressing sails, blanketing, and heeling effect, which I also think are very important for realism.  

Posted by: @petersj

Although vertical wind speed at one location is a constant, we could still give a top gallant a relatively higher gain, for instance, if we want to. Or decrease efficiency of certain sails at higher wind speeds.

Excellent 😀 

Posted by: @petersj

There will be ships with only fore-aft sales and ships with predominantly square sails, and obviously these different sail plans especially count depending on whether you are going for large ocean crossings or coastal sailing. If you're trapped at low shore (that's a Dutch translation, I don't know the English term) which will probably happen quite often in the game, considering the experience factor, maybe those fore-aft sails might get you out of a pickle.

The term you are looking for is "lee shore."  I was replying in my last post to "you might want to solely use your fore-and-aft sails," which I may have wrongfully interpreted to mean you planned for square-rigged ships to be able to sail under solely fore-and-aft canvas.  A square-rigger would not be able to claw her way off a lee shore under staysails, mizzen and/or jib, but a true fore-and-aft rigged vessel might have a slight advantage, as you say.

Posted by: @petersj

Many of the things you indicate in your post should be able to enter into that, and for that we will need good advice!

I'm glad to hear it!  I am at your service (whaling and commands research I have paused with the past few weeks' overwhelming activity and the coming week's sailing trip, but I look forward to resuming them in 8 days).

@sir-john

What we can simulate on the ship are as simple the things I indicated. The game won't have (real) hydrodynamics or airdrag. So if you can simulate complex factors with the value input that is available, you could possibly model that.

So for instance the effects on a sail failing to catch enough wind in the shadow of other sails running before the wind, would be quite simple to simulate. We know the type of sail, its position. We know which sails are up. We know the angle of the wind. So let's say value of a sail is 10 at catching full wind, we could decrease that to 5 if it is in a position to catch less wind. We have all the data to include that.

But it is 'not real', as all we have are data values of limited sources to calculate. So there will be limited possibilities. But let's say a particular sail configuration in particular conditions has an effect on a particular hull type, maybe due to creating a particular depressing effect, that is something you could simulate by giving an increased value to that sail configuration. But we will not truly have hydrodynamics, it's not a real simulation in that sense, you have to work with set input values. It's more that you simulate certain effects based on a certain logic, that would make sense if you understood what that would do in real life.

You will also not have the detail, such as 'feeling' the ship's helm. You are not the one steering the ship. You have a helmsman, you give orders. So you're not configuring the finer details of steering, that is a skill your helmsman has, if you ensured his experience and training. So you are not busy micro-adjusting the sails. You can set sail configurations for specific circumstances, you are busy with the much more tactical or strategic aspects of sailing. Like when you play football manager, you're not playing football, you don't kick the ball into a goal. You configure the team and tactics.

So you can experiment with all types of settings. Have your sailing master give you readings. And go and optimise what you think is best. You can then also assign basic sets of configuration to specific circumstances, like a sailplan for a specific condition, and your crew can even set those when you're off-line. And the whole thing is dynamic, as that the condition of your ship itself, the state of maintenance and materials, is also a factor. So things behave differently as the condition of the ship internally and externally alters. And crew quality is also a factor.       

@petersj

That sounds great.  It's those calculations that I hoped to help

Posted by: @petersj

So you're not configuring the finer details of steering, that is a skill your helmsman has, if you ensured his experience and training. So you are not busy micro-adjusting the sails. You can set sail configurations for specific circumstances, you are busy with the much more tactical or strategic aspects of sailing. Like when you play football manager, you're not playing football, you don't kick the ball into a goal. You configure the team and tactics.

If you were responding to what I said above about weather helm, that was a consideration of speed rather than steering.  Weather-helm refers to actions of the helmsman to counteract a tendency of the ship to turn into the wind; this tendency is the responsibility of the master, captain, or officer of the watch, not (as you say) the steering itself.  To coax the maximum speed out of your ship, you (or your master/OOD) might wish to set what sail would minimize this tendency. 

But this all sounds great.  Thank you for your responses, I look forward to when these mechanics start development.  In the meantime, I'll draft a real and reasonable proposition for sailing forces 

Posted by: @sir-john

If you were responding to what I said above about weather helm, that was a consideration of speed rather than steering.  Weather-helm refers to actions of the helmsman to counteract a tendency of the ship to turn into the wind; this tendency is the responsibility of the master, captain, or officer of the watch, not (as you say) the steering itself.

What I mean is that the physics that would create such a tendency in the first place, are not in the game. And there is also not the actual 'feel of the helm' so it is hard to make such a tendency a concrete observation. You will not experience it in any concrete way. All that we have to work with, are the derived values as I stated them. And in those, of course, you could try to work in a logic that would comply with such conditions. So that they are in some way approximated and logic.

But it will also limit some aspects of sailing. It is as impossible to make this a 100% realistic simulation, as it is to make football manager a 100% realistic simulation. Ultimately you are limited by the perspective you choose to work out.

If the weather helm was a responsibility of the Sailing Master, than that aspect might be as simple as that it is encapsulated in the overall quality, training and education of your Sailing Master, where a ship will, overall, perform better in certain areas when you have paid attention to your Sailing Master, instead of the details of a job that is really his.

In this same manner you don't navigate. Your Sailing Master navigates. You tell him where to. The skills he has reflect therefore the quality of the set courses and accurate location of the vessel. So there will be no first person Sextant or Quarterstaff simulation in the game for instance, because that is not your job. Your job is to ensure the quality of ship and crew and make tactical decisions.

But within that we will add lots of detail, especially where it concerns tactical and strategic considerations. But less so the technical application of them.

@petersj

Hello Peter, very intersting thread (although it is more about sailing ;-)). A question on crew management: how will discipline be enforced ? Will there be problems of discipline ? Will the captain have the power to punish members of his crew ? And if the captain is unfair and excessive in punishment, could this lead to mutiny, like in 1797 in the HMS Hermione, when the cruel and violent Captain Pigot was killed with some officers by a part of his crew ? 

@bonden

Yes to all your questions!

You can find some more information on this too if you look for 'cws characters'.

But is essence your crew members have personalities and they are influenced by the circumstances. And the combination of these cause reactions, or probabilities of certain reactions.

It is possible a crew member bugs you for a promotion. Or steals something. Gets into a fight. Is found drunk on a watch. Breaks a bone. Gets a disease. Refuses an order. Shows great promise at a task. Fails an exam. Is a sexual deviant. Etc. Etc.

You will get presented these issues. And you'll have four options of how to respond to each issue. Your response will have an effect on the particular crew member, but possibly also on other involved in the issue, or your officers, or your whole crew. Being too soft is not good, being too harsh is not good, refusing things is not good, or maybe better for others, etc.

The results of your decisions are not obvious. You'll notice, when reading reports, how the morale and loyalty of your crew members is affected. But not directly, you get those reports periodically from your officers, and these reports do not offer scores of numbers, but words like 'excellent' and 'poor'. And might be a result conditions, health, results of battles, your decisions, etc. So it will be hard to know exactly how your policies and actions affect the crew, you'll have to use your intuition.

If the morale and loyalty of your crew drop too low, for too many crew members, a mutiny can be the result. In this case you will be put overboard, lose your ship, and your crew will sail for the nearest Pirate base and add to the numbers of outlaws with your former ship.

But the closest you can compare these mechanics to, is a game like Football Manager, where you manage a team, acquire and train players, put them in the field, determine tactics, and deal with their problems. We wish to create a same type of management mechanic, but for 18th century ships, army units and businesses.

@petersj Very interesting, thanks a lot for your answer Peter.